Tuesday, August 23, 2005

New Personal Prelature in the works?

Vaticanisti delayed posting until we were able to verify from other sources this news: Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X ("SSPX") will be meeting in Rome on August 29th. This on-again off-again relationship between the Vatican and the traditionalist movement looks like its on-again.

Is another personal prelature in the works? Past talks have focused on the possibility both of making the Mass of Pius V readily available alongside the Mass of Paul VI and of permitting the jurisdictional status of a personal prelature, like Opus Dei.

Of course, this is alleged to have been the offer made during the famous talks between Castrillon de Hoyos and Fellay in 2001. SSPX didn't take the bait then and given their intransigence in the past, Vaticanisti would advise against holding your breath now. Nevertheless, one can continue to hope that they will return to the fold.

58 Comments:

Anonymous mother angelica said...

O so beautiful...I had a wonderful day.

7:41 PM  
Blogger chattr said...

A personal prelature was not offered. A personal apostolic administration was offered.

The difference is that with a prelature, the local ordinary has veto over the SSPX (or Opus Dei) operating in the diocese, and if they were admitted into the diocese, the ordinary could withdraw permission.

With a personal apostolic administration, no such veto exists: it operates in a manner similar to another diocese 'on top of' the existing diocese. They would have their own buildings, priests, seminaries, publications, 'parish' registers, etc.

It goes without saying (though I will say it) that the SSPX would never accept a prelature. They would never accept local ordinaries having authority over them.

7:55 PM  
Blogger Teófilo de Jesús said...

I don't like the fact that Bishop Fellay wants to "negotiate" already and yet carries with him a list of demands. That smacks me as insincere.

There's nothing as "traditional" as recanting from schism, scandal, and heresy and then submitting to the Holy See, therefore, let them do that before they receive any privileges. I am sure that Pope Benedict XVI will be generous with them without giving away the house.

-Theo

6:49 AM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

The difference between Opus Dei and SSPX is that Opus Dei remains faithful to the Magesterium and the Pope. Members of Opus Dei are OBEDIENT. I can't say the same thing about members of SSPX. Why give them a special prelature now?

7:13 AM  
Blogger mariette said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:06 AM  
Blogger Deo volente said...

Thank God (if there is a God) for Archbishop Lefebvre. Let's pray he didn't die in vain.

Sorry, was the Archbishop martyred or something? All men die. That's the way it is. Whether he died in schism or not is for God to decide. I pray that a union does occur as this Pope is likely to wish to keep the Latin Mass alive and well. However, on the night He died, Jesus prayed for unity. My prayers are for unity (again).

9:24 AM  
Blogger mariette said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Am I missing something here?

JPII spent years trying to cultivate Marcel Lefebvre and his "traditionalist" clones while beating up the Liberation Theology movement (JPII Superstar as multi-task Pope).

Marcel ordained bishops in direct contravention to the Vatican and was declared to be in schism while proponents of Liberation Theology remained, if reluctantly, in communion with the Vatican. (Served JPII right that the schism came from the "traditionalists" and not from the "free-thinking Marxists")

And now, the Vatican wants to reward disobediance and schism with an embrace?

And all the while, Oscar Romero's corpse is rotting away in a crypt in Salvador because the Vatican made it clear to the death squads that Romero did not enjoy its support!

What's really going on here?

Paul - SF

10:31 AM  
Blogger mariette said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10:39 AM  
Anonymous Paul's a Twit said...

You are even moronic than I first thought, Paul.

Its not hard to stay "in communion" with Rome when nobody excommunicates you, as in the case of the Liberation Theology crowd. Everybody knows that after VII the only sin you could get excommunicated for was denying VII. Anybody with some familiarity with Catholic life today knows that most the people in the bureaucracy don't believe a host of Catholic teachings. The reality of Hell? That sin deserves punishment? That faith in Christ is necessary for salvation? Mortal sins? The Catholic Church is the one true Church? The traditionalists are far more doctrinally on target than most of the folks "in communion" who don't really give a damn one way or the other or who made up their own religion. The difference was - the Lefebvre crowd gave a damn. Damn enough to stand up for what they believed in, what had been passed down to them, rather than just going along with the whole sad post-conciliar program of ecclesial self-destruction.

I don't think this subject is your forte, Paul. Back to the molesting priests! You've got that one covered.

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah! You want to talk about pride? Cardinal Ratzinger wanted Archbishop Lefebvre to write an apology to the Pope for his (rightful) stance when the negotiations were going on! What a bunch of garbage! Everyone got an apology from the Holy Father; Jews, Orthodox, etc. but those holding to the traditional Catholic faith and were persecuted through lies and destortions (e.g. a Cardinal telling Pope Paul VI that the FSSPX priests sign an oath against the Pope) are to apology?! What?!

BTW, the Quo Primum lives on and hopefully Pope Benedict will see that no one needs permission to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass.

1:51 PM  
Anonymous Louis E. said...

The posited difference between apostolic administration and personal prelature is quite different from what I have understood it to be.As I understand it,a personal prelature can operate anywhere regardless of ordinaries (though not in diocesan churches,schools,etc) while an apostolic administration is bound by territorial limitations (the Apostolic Administration of St. John Vianney has the same boundaries as the Diocese of Campos).Does anyone have the relevant canons handy?

2:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"PAT" -

You've gotta forgive me.

Perish the thought somebody tells the truth about your rather twisted version of Catholicism. It exists in the alternate universe of your childhood.

Get some real world experience under your belts. Wake up and smell the decay of your version of Church.

Paul - SF

2:20 PM  
Anonymous Pat's a twit said...

I recognize fully that "my version" of the Church - shared by Hildebrand, Ignatius of Loyola, St. Caterine of Siena, Padre Pio and the rest - is gone, if not "decayed." Guess what? Just cause its gone doesn't mean I'm embracing blindly "your version" because its the only thing left under the name "Catholic." The fact is, the religion of my childhood, as you call it, is dead.

2:29 PM  
Blogger Beasonlopes said...

I was watching EWTN during the World Youth Day celebration and a bunch of people were doing what was described as a "liturgical dance."

Am I correct that SSPX is ok with liturgical dance as long as it is a latin dance, e.g., modern salsa? Or is it their position that the dance be performed as Pius V was said to have danced during mass, which was, according to most Catholic historians, more of a rhumba.

6:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The saints always obeyed their superiors, EVEN WHEN UNJUSTLY PERSECUTED BY CHURCH AUTHORITIES. So I cannot buy into the Lefebvre as martyr mentality. God alone is the judge of his soul, but it remains an objective fact that he disobeyed the Holy Father's direct orders.
As for the difference between SSPX and Protestants and Orthodox, I think it should be readily apparent to all--the Church has long taught that there is a big difference between someone who has knowingly broke communion with the fold and those who have been "born" into a situation of schism hundreds of years later. They are not the same thing and should not be treated as such.
That being said, I too am praying for this meeting and for reunion, which I do believe would require a miracle given their strident attitude toward the Council, of which Pope Benedict XVI quoted JPII saying, "I am convinced that it will long be granted to the new generations to draw from the treasures that this 20th-century Council has lavished upon us."
It is my impression that the current SSPX leadership is much more antagonistic to the Council than was Lefebvre.
-GregY

6:58 AM  
Blogger vaticanisti said...

Paul:

The Vaticanisti feel the need once again to offer at least a mild criticism of you. In some of your previous posts, you have accused faithful Catholics of reflexively labeling as "anti-Catholic" anyone who criticizes the Church. Ironically, whenever you encounter an argument for fidelity to Rome, regardless of how articulate or inarticulate it may be, you label it as "childish" or "disconnected from reality." How are these designations helpful to any meaningful discussion about the state of contemporary Catholicism and, perhaps more importantly, the status of those who choose to remain in communion with Rome?

What's more, why should being "childish" be used as a pejoritive? Last time the Vaticanisti checked, it was Christ himself who said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 18: 3,4).

8:16 AM  
Anonymous Mr. Can't Believe How Obtuse You All Are said...

Dear idiotic GregY,

Loads of people leave the Catholic Church every year for Protestantism and Orthodoxy (literally thousands worldwide). Are these persons schimatics or do they somehow geat grandfathered in as non-schismatics since the non-Catholic movements they are joining are really old? Also, since Lefebvre is now dead and the ranks of SSPX progressively will be filled out by people from the next generation - will we soon get to say they are no longer schismatics? Please tell me, when do we get to stop calling them schismatics? Or is SSPX the only schismatic group but nobody else from here on out? I'm really interested in the finer details of your casuisty. It will be espeically interesting how you deal with the fact that SSPX people generally accept more of Catholic doctrine than most non-excommunicated Catholics and all Protestant and Orthodox Christians. Strange times we're living in!

Like all the others, you are totally pathetic. Get some guts and starting taking on the really important factions of non-Catholic Christians, instead of beating up on one little group that stood up for Catholic tradition in the face of the conciliar disaster.

You people are the reason why I don't believe in Catholicism. You have no independent thought or action. You check your brain at the door and exchange it for the papal brain.

8:22 AM  
Anonymous salvacion said...

Way to go GregY! What SSPX refuses to acknowledge is that there is really nothing wrong with the Council papers - it is the misinterpretations and misrepresentations of them that the Church today tries to correct - if only SSPX would read the writings of our late pontiff, Pope John Paul the Great, which magnificently explains the Council papers.

I truly cannot see what is so objectionable about 'Lumen Gentium', 'Gaudium et Spes' and other Council papers.

About Latin Masses - I love it, but only if done in Novus Urdo, which I can only avail of in Rome or in oratories of OBEDIENT religious or lay organizations. But what, really, is the issue here? Is it the richness of celebration or is it our pious participation in the celebration of Our Lord's Passion? Because both are present in "Paul VI's" Mass as SSPX call it. The only difference is that we understand every word said and we are not presented with the celebrant's back most of the time. How did Jesus celebrate the first Mass? Did he have his back towards his apostles? I, too, love "smoke and bells". These are still present in solemn celebrations.

8:22 AM  
Anonymous salvacion outside the church said...

salvacion -

get some education. you are a mindless apologist for the status quo. it is well known that certain vII teachings contradicted or went well beyond what the church had taught previously. for example, whereas before VII official catholic teaching was that only persons of invincible ignorace or with the intention to be joined to the church could be saved "outside the church," in lumen gentium the council fathers (without quoting a single scriptural passage) taught that anyone outside the church who "followed his conscience" could be saved. that's a long way from extra ecclesiam nulla salus! Oh, please don't tell me what that REALLY means - quoting the catechism, no salvation "apart" from the church. Do you really think that is what the medieval popes meant by that?! this is a matter of substantive disagreement. it is a serious question. it can't just be papered over with modern glosses that are two minutes old, compartively speaking. get a brain.

8:30 AM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

But I have a brain the last I checked! Don't attack my education just because I follow what the Church teaches. The Holy Spirit still guides the Church, that's why the recent popes UNDERSTAND better the Church that Jesus founded than the medieval popes. Salvation is for all! Accept and understand it - and get over your "Catholics Only" mindset.

9:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vaticanisti:

What I find childish is NOT fidelity to Rome. What I do find childish is the staggering blindness which causes some to divorce their fidelity to Rome from reality. The published record supports my earlier remarks and I stand by them.

Why is is that some will support a position (any position) in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE TRUTH?

Is it that you folks just don't get it or that "faith" prevents you from acknowledging what is true?

The gospel was never meant to be used to obscure the truth.

Paul - SF

9:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps we can all take this fervent energy and devote it to praying for this meeting, eh? (I'm talking to myself as much as anyone else). While we have different opinions, I think we can all agree that we want to see a reunion and that the SSPX would be a wonderful addition in the the on-going battle to renew and strengthen the Church (given some assumptions, of course, on which I'm sure Benedict will insist).
-GregY

11:09 AM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

Yeah. PAX. GregY, are you Canadian?

11:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Heh heh. No, just a Christian eh.
GregY

6:34 AM  
Anonymous salvacion outside the church said...

salvacion,

i don't have a "catholics only" mindset. i just think its important to acknowledge the truth. the medieval popes are contradicted by the modern popes. you can say the modern popes understand the gospel better - that's a fine position, if you can back it up. but do you actually think about it or do you just decide in advance that whatever the present day popes say must be right and if it seems to contradict the past popes, well, we'll just say the new popes understand the gospel better? if the medieval popes were wrong, then the modern popes might be wrong too, the truth still waiting to be revealed in some future epoch. that means we actually have to think for ourselves, read our bibles, study history and the other sources to find out what seems right. look, anybody can play your game. you don't even have to to have any faith. don't you think i can? i used to. anytime there appeared to be a contradiction between present-day catholic teaching and past catholic teaching i just tidied it all up to make it consistent with what the pope said yesterday. over the long run, it isn't very intellectually satisfying. as far as salvation being for everyone - um, you might want to think about jesus' saying that he was the only way to salvation. did that statement every give you pause? i'm just asking you to think about it. have enough resepct for jesus to take what he says seriously enough to look into it on your own, without letting the pope tell you how to think. who knows - you might find out jesus' teaching on salvation isn't what you think it is. it might not be "nice." it might not be true either. you could think about that too. but i can almost certify it's not going to be exactly what you had in mind before you thought about it.

9:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"we are not presented with the celebrant's back most of the time"

What we have now is the priest presenting his back to the Tabernacle. If you believe Christ is present in the Tabernacle (and we're supposed to believe that), it's preferable to be one with the priest in facing towards the repository, all addressing God together. The way it is now is just wrong, theologically and psychologically.

12:24 PM  
Anonymous c matt said...

I don't like the fact that Bishop Fellay wants to "negotiate" already and yet carries with him a list of demands. That smacks me as insincere

I would not necessarily take the fact he brings a list of demands as being insincere. How else are you going to negotiate/discuss what can and can't be compromised if you don't even know what the other side wants? Every negotiation (not just this one) starts with each side communicating its demands.

1:38 PM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

"If you believe Christ is present in the Tabernacle (and we're supposed to believe that), it's preferable to be one with the priest in facing towards the repository, all addressing God together."

But what do we have on the altar?

2:13 PM  
Anonymous Louis E. said...

Salvacion...the position of the altar is one of the things that is different in Tridentine and modern Masses.(I am not a Christian,just pointing that out).

4:33 PM  
Blogger Jeff said...

I like Mariette's forthright comments about the papacy best. It's what I have notice among so many of my "Traditionalist" brethren at the Indult Mass I attend:

They aren't really Catholic at all. They're Western Orthodox.

6:27 PM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

louis e.

It was a rhetorical question. They know what IS on the Altar.

What I'm noticing in these blogs is the lack of humility of some people. I bet most of them would call St. Therese of Lisseux a simpleton just because she found a way to love God in simple things. She said that "Our Lord needs from us neither great deeds nor profound thoughts; neither intelligence nor talents. He cherishes simplicity."

You said you're not a Christian, louis e.--- I can assure you that not all Christians act this way (as some of the bloggers).

I'm sure most of you have been to the Holy Land where Christians of different denominations and orthodoxy have claimed rights on different "areas" inside the shrines, and seem to try to outdo each other in their form of "worship" of God. This is what comes to mind when I hear people say that their form of worship is better than the rest. Like all of you, I desire a reverent celebration of the Holy Eucharist; I long for incense and bells and proper liturgical music (preferably Latin). However, unlike some of you, I do not encourage dissent. I follow and uphold whatever the Magisterium teaches. For how do you differ from the "cafeteria Catholics" who choose only the teachings they can "live with"?

Call me brain dead or mindless twit - I don't care. I'll say, "you sancify me".

10:31 PM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

I'm rather late to this thread: Someone calling themselves "Pat's a twit" said:. . . "I recognize fully that "my version" of the Church - shared by Hildebrand, Ignatius of Loyola, St. Catherine of Siena, Padre Pio and the rest - is gone . . . The fact is, the religion of my childhood, as you call it, is dead.

There are today many Catholics who are in communion with Rome, who are also devoted to these great saints and to the truths proposed to us by the pre-Conciliar Church. Many are associated with Opus Dei, and there are enclaves within the various Orders, too. I am one of these Catholics, and I have a number of precious friends who are the same.

I attended an indult Latin Mass for several months at a parish not far from where I live. It was very beautiful. I was enthralled. I bought and wore a lace mantilla, as this was the custom among the women who attended. We used to go to the parish hall for coffee and donuts after Mass. Standing around being introduced, one of the regular attendees (late middle-aged male) touched me inappropriately. (I won't go into details, but my husband, if he had been there, would have punched the guy out - but, then again, it wouldn't have happened if my husband had been there) The man's wife was right there. I felt sorry for her - he must act out in this way from time to time, and she had accomodated herself to it.

Anyway, always managing to steer clear of el Creepo, I continued to attend and tried to get to know some of the other attendees. Some were very nice, but didn't have a lot to say. The more talkative ones carried on a lot and as I got to know them, I developed the impression of them them as some of the most angry, vituperative, miserable, sorry souls I've ever come across. It was nothing but complain, complain - about, you name it: the bishop, the pastor at their own parishes, their fellow parishoners, the CCD program, the distance they had to drive to get here, the priest we had last Sunday, the weather, the state of the Church, the state of the nation: All was misery, gloom and despair, and this bubbling, burbling anger. Yikes!

Let me get this straight: you go once a week to this beautiful indult Latin Mass, which you say you find so very much more holy and uplifting than the Novus Ordo Mass at your parish. Fine. You receive Our Blessed Lord in Holy Communion, (kneeling at the altar rail, as you wish to do). You receive the priest's blessing. You go out the door, across the driveway to the parish hall, and before the powdered sugar from that donut in your hand even touches your lips, it's bitch, moan, bitch, moan.

Then one morning, a number of us arrived for Holy Mass, and it turned out the parish had turned the church over to the local K.Of C. for their annual prayer breakfast, and had cancelled our Mass without notifying anyone. I was very disappointed, but was chatting with the K.of C. rep at the front door, who was very nice and apologetic, and had stationed himself there to warn off the soon-to-be disappointed Latin Mass attendees. Another regular, a young father with his wife and children arrived, and when he heard that our Mass had been cancelled; man, he lammed into that K.of C. guy - who was a perfectly decent, older gentleman. The young father yelled, "You Knights of Columbus ought to be ashamed of yourselves!" For what? For receiving permission from the parish once a year to bump our indult Mass? The young father was totally enraged. I was scared, I was like, is he going to smash his pick-up truck into the side of the church now, or what? He left. I felt so bad for the K. of C. guy. He hadn't answered the young father back at all, just looked very rueful.

That tore it. I couldn't go back after that. I don't know why I went back even more than once. Well, the Mass and the music were gorgeous. I was truly enthralled. But I couldn't take the way the people carried on.

6:41 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

The traditionalist feel that they were treated very badly in the 70s and 80s. They were, in their minds, screwed without even getting a kiss afterwards. That would make a person bitter.

9:05 AM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

That was my whole point. They had the indult Latin Mass. It was beautiful. I was there. It was enthralling. And yet these people wouldn't stop already with the anger and the complaining. . .

I couldn't take it anymore.

To me, better the Novus Ordo and the guitars (yuck) than the indult crowd with their toxic rage . . . even while they enjoyed the indult Mass, there was still this rage!

This makes me think that, with some (not all)in this crowd, that it's not just about the Mass; that many of these folks have got a whole 'nother set of issues going on.

9:28 AM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

P.S. Please let me emphasize, let these folks have the indult Mass - by all means. I don't wish to see them disturbed further!!

I do wish, though, that there was a beautiful Latin Mass with glorious music for people to go to where you don't have to be with the enraged folks. It's too bad.

9:32 AM  
Anonymous Mike said...

Marion - maybe a universal indult or pp or aa would help to provide the Traditional Mass to a wider group of people, who are not self-selecting into an angry and bitter crowd.

Mike

2:13 PM  
Blogger John Bianco said...

Marion, I am sorry you had such a bad experience with the parishoners at the indult, at the locations I have been at, the parishoners were not anything like that save for maybe a couple odd feenyites.

But I will say this, the fact the mass was cancelled for a prayer breakfast I do find to be unexcuseable. No mass should be cancelled, be it the Tridentine mass, or any mass for a group that has no other options, such as various ethnic groups that have mass in their own languages, for example of there is only one parish with a mass in Polish in a local area and it was cancelled, they would be rightfully angry as well.

As for the "bitch and moan, bitch and moan", again, while I havent seen that where I have been, walk a mile in the shoes of these people. Alsmot all of them have stories of why they went t here, be it heresy from the pulpit that led their family members and often themselves astray, losing faith, seeing the mass being de constructed over the years and being treated like absolute dirt by various clergy and laity alike.

3:55 PM  
Blogger mariette said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:56 PM  
Blogger Ephraem said...

Yes Trad communities can be very creepy. I don't know whether you've looked at NO parishes recently, but the same is often the case. Indeed the front bar of the local pub is almost as bad. In fact, human beings as a generality can be pretty disgusting. I think it's called original sin.

3:20 PM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

I wouldn't characterize this particular group as "creepy" or "disgusting", although I would say that one individual in the group would fit that description. No, I would characterize this group as just remarkably angry. There was this over-the-top outrage. All the time.

P_ssed off. Ticked off. Irate. Outraged. Complaining. Unhappy. . .

You know. . .

Angry.

And, no, now that you mention it, I can't say I ever have come across that level of anger in Novus Ordo parishes, or pubs, or even at gatherings of very traditional Catholic groups like Opus Dei.

Remarkable.

8:51 AM  
Blogger vaticanisti said...

"...or even at gatherings of very traditional Catholic groups like Opus Dei."

Pray tell, what exactly is that supposed to mean?

Will Opus Dei be maligned as being too traditional, along with so-called Tridentine Catholics?

Opus Dei's members will be first to tell you that their charism is an anticipation and embrace of the Church's teaching on the role of the laity as expounded at Vatican II. Maybe you should get to know something about them before making an assault on them. Dan Brown doesn't really have them all figured out, you know.

11:37 AM  
Blogger mariette said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12:10 PM  
Blogger vaticanisti said...

The commenter was talking about anger, as if that would have been expected at the meetings of Opus Dei because they are traditional. The vaticanisti's point was the opposite of yours, actually--anger is not one of the indicia of being traditional, though some who have looked at recent comments posted herein may seem to think so. There should be nothing surprising about the fact that Opus Dei folks are not angry, as the hallmark of Christianity is the joy that comes from freedom in Christ. That's the point.

12:27 PM  
Anonymous Salvacion said...

Vaticanisti,

Thank you for your very favorable comments about Opus Dei. Members would probably prefer being called conservative (even with the "ultra" attached to it) or orthodox because of the prelature's faithfulness to the magisterium.

And yes, humility is paramount to their charism. In fact, the reason you don't hear from the members so often is not because they don't know the doctrine - they're all well versed with it (more so than some priests and "theologians"), but they prefer not to get embroiled in a pissing contest such as this.

Oh, and they pray in Latin, too.

In case you ask - I'm not a member but I'm a friend of Opus Dei.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Bishop Bernard Fellay said...

Albano Laziale
August 29, 2005

Today, Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X met with the Holy Father Benedict XVI at his residence of Castelgandolfo. At the conclusion of the audience, he [Bishop Fellay] made the following declaration:

The meeting lasted about thirty-five minutes; it took place in an atmosphere of calm.

The audiences was an opportunity for the Society to manifest that it has always been attached —and always will be —to the Holy See, Eternal Rome.

We broached the serious difficulties, already known, in a spirit of great love for the Church.

We reached a consensus as to proceeding by stages in the resolution of problems.

The Society of Saint Pius X prays that the Holy Father might find the strength to put an end to the crisis in the Church by "restoring all things in Christ."

+ Bernard Fellay
Superior General

2:12 PM  
Blogger Ephraem said...

Marion,

What you've neverhad the feminist angry mau mau at a NO parish? They usually begin by saying "I'm angry..". Very creepy, very angry.

and

You must go to a better class of pub than I do!

E

3:26 PM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

I'm one (teeny tiny insignificant) person, and I commented about one particular group I ran into. Maybe the group is totally unrepresentative of all such groups. I don't know. But, what is interesting to me is that some of the commenters here seem to not like it very much that one person (a) found one such group to be really angry and (b) has come here and has said so.

"Well, theyhad been badly treated."

"Well, N.O.s are just as bad."

"Well, you're dissing Opus Dei."

(Huh? Saint Josemaria, pray for us.)

Thanks, everybody, for your thoughts. I'm very sorry to have upset or offended you. Forgive me. Thank you. God bless you. Good-bye.

6:45 PM  
Anonymous fr. bob said...

Marion,

Don't leave just yet. You're growing on me. As Lonergan said, the objective of anger is radical subjectivity. Don't let the bitters chase you away. I too have found ultra-traditionalists not the happiest of folks. Its like they need to go on a retreat.

6:53 PM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

You're growing on me.

Not, I hope, like a bad rash.

Thanks, Father.

7:17 PM  
Blogger Ephraem said...

Marion,
My point is that any group of people is likely to have individuals with neuroses. It's the human condition.

I'm not into finger pointing at some group because some of their members are odd.

You have to deal with arguments not personal flaws.

E

7:25 PM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

Hi, Ephraim. (Cool name)

You wrote: "I'm not into finger pointing at some group because some of their members are odd."

Finger-pointing?

Please note, I have limited my remarks to describing behavior that I personally heard and saw, my opinion of the behavior, and the effect the behavior had on me.

I think finger-pointing goes a little further than that . . . but I am prepared to grant the point.

(Does that mean that commenting on the behavior of whacky progressives is somehow out-of-bounds for you?)

and . . .some of their members are odd

I didn't say they were "odd". You said "odd". I said a-n-g-r-y

"You have to deal with arguments not personal flaws."

What arguments? I never heard any.

That's just it, E.! I went in embracing the whole deal - the mantilla, the kneeling at the altar rail, the Latin, the Gregorian music.

I LOVED IT I came in loving it! I was SO HAPPY to have found this group.

It was a small group, maybe 70 people or so. I had no arguments; I loved what this Mass was like. I wanted to fit in, get to know people. But how could I when the ongoing topic of so many of the conversations was:

"Those lousy . . .!"

"Why do we have to put up with. . .?"

"The Church started to go downhill when . . .!"

"Those miserable . . . !"

Yech.

I had to get out

And that's sad, because that Mass and that music were so beautiful. I wish there were another indult Mass within a 10-mile radius of my neighborhood. But sadly, there's not.

I'm keeping this going because I can't get over how people - even Catholics - even Catholics who are "on the same side" - can't seem to hear what each other are actually saying. Is it the absence of physical presence - we can't get a read on one another's appearance, demeanor, tone of voice, etc.? That these are key elements of how we understand what each other are saying? That without those cues, everything just goes "in one ear and out the other"?

I don't know . . .

5:41 AM  
Anonymous Marion (Mael Muire) said...

P.S. Ephraim, you mentioned "feminist angry mau mau at a NO parish?"

That was a hoot, a ROFL. I can just picture one of those. You nailed it.

But. . . Finger pointing? Or no?

5:50 AM  
Blogger Cacciaguida said...

One good reason not to use the personal prelature as the canonical path for returning SSPXers is that one becomes a member of a personal prelature by divine vocation. I doubt whether returning SSPXers want to be, or have any reason to be, limited in that way. Personal administration sounds like more the ticket.

And yes, folks in Opus Dei are conspicuously non-angry. They're sometimes criticized for that by some of the more off-their-meds traditionalists. Oh well, can't please everyone.

7:44 PM  
Anonymous KenjiroShoda said...

What is the trouble with allowing the Tridentine Latin Mass (Pius V Mass) along side the present Novus Ordo?
One was a blessing for the Church (the tridentine Latin Mass), and one has been a decided disaster (The Novus Ordo).
One (the Tridentine Latin Mass)gave birth to Saints, and for which martyrs died, and produced the greatest Church art, architecture, music, and Catholic culture.
The other (The Novus Ordo), has given is empty Churches, seminaries, convents, monasteries, chapels, dead religious Orders, bizarre and scandelous liturgies, dissent, disobedience, and the almost overnight loss of our whole Catholic culture....not to mention the unending scandals involving priests.
It should be an easy choice which Mass is of God (The Tridentine Mass), and which obviously is from somewhere else......(regions below !!)

5:31 AM  
Anonymous sadie vacantist said...

I suspect that Marion is right that the TLM often attracts unhappy people and I would include myself in that category.

On the other hand, I haven't met many joyful NO people in fact the NO priests I met on retreat looked totally depressed and their morale at rock bottom.

As for the sexual problems of individuals, the NO priests have committed just as many crimes as the Trads. I don't think the devil could give a hoot about theology when it comes to corrupting individuals in this regard.

What frustrates many trads (depressed or otherwise) is that the current model for the Church seems to be failing. There seems to be a refusal to admit that problems exist. This complete denial insults the intelligence of the laity and yet the SOVII promises to "empower" me. I am not looking for power, all I am asking for is that for one hour a week that my depression is not compounded by an insulted intelligence - no more no less. Is that asking so much of a priest?

8:57 AM  
Anonymous Menemene said...

Why quabble about formats and rites? And when was the last time you went to personal, auricular confession? Are you holy in the eyes of God? That's what really counts!

8:09 PM  
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9:31 AM  

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